Fatherhood

In honor of Father’s Day weekend, this episode focuses on fatherhood and the trials and tribulations to African-American fathers in 2023. Three fathers share intimate and personal stories of joy, pain, and overcoming the complexities of fatherhood.

Guest:
Deacon Thomas Withers
Deacon Charles Francis

Sources:
www.unitedadvocacygroup.org/blog/the-importance-of-having-a-mentor-as-an-at-risk-youth
www.fathers.com/the-extent-of-fatherlessness/
www.thefatherlessgeneration.wordpress.com/statistics/

Transcript

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

love, children, dad, fathers, conversation, kids, father, greatest challenge, Francis, Withers, Benton,  good, uncomfortable, give,  experience, god, call, day, world, happen, started

SPEAKERS

Deacon Francis, Prayer, Deacon Thomas, Pastor B

Prayer  00:00

gracious God our Father we come now God and spirit of humbleness and obedience and in love God for you. We thank you now for allowing us to come together God, three men, three fathers. They're just after your heart God, all we want to do is please you so God, hear our voices, hear our cry, continue to strengthen us, God and give us the way that you would have us to go that we might serve your people in a way that's pleasing in your sight, so blessed as gathered here today God that we might be helpful to someone else who was in need gone just by sharing. So God, we thank you for even the opportunity to do something for your kingdom. in Jesus Christ name we pray.

Deacon Withers  00:45

Amen. Amen.

Pastor B  01:01

And we are back. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to our mountain top man, a podcast. It has been three long years and I thank you for hanging in here with us. We got two episodes in in 2020. And then the pandemic hit. And the roller coaster that ensued we could not record but the Lord has brought us through. And here we are today with a brand new episode as we relaunch our podcasts, and we have a good one in store for you on today. Our podcast focuses on faith, family finance, and fitness with tons of fun mixed into every episode. We are incredibly passionate about empowering others to live the abundant life that is made available to us through Jesus Christ. And this podcast contains real conversation geared towards encouraging and informing the listener that is you on how to become the best version of yourself in a very practical way. And this episode in our reboot are starting back up gears towards fatherhood as we're entering into Father's Day weekend. Now, it's been a while. So let me remind you on the structure of our podcast, our podcast has three different segments, the real, the climb, and the takeaway. The real is the issue that is happening right now in the valley, in the living of our lives, how we live it out in the valley that necessitates us getting revelation that is transformative so that we can live better than we're living right now. That means there's a problem. And we need to solve the problem. And we need God to step in, and give us some information. All right, the climb is the work that must be done in order to get on to the top of the mountain so that we can receive the manner the life giving divine fruit and nourishment for our mind and our spirit to change what's happening to us in the valley. The takeaway then, is what we want to encourage you to take back with you to your village in the valley, so that we can better empower one another to experience transformation and healing in Jesus Christ. All right. So let's with that jump right into things and get into the real what's the real what's the real All right, here are some troubling statistics about fatherless children in the US. This comes from the National Center for fathering and the fatherless generation. All right. 85% of youths in prison come from fatherless homes. 71% of high school dropouts come from, you guessed it homes where there is no father present. 90% of all homeless and runaway children listen to this 90% don't have a father at home. nearly 25 million children live without their biological father 60% of youth suicides come from homes where there is no father present. Fathers make a significant impact and and I just want to encourage also all of our single mothers who may be there saying hey, I have no control over what my child or my children's father does. I do have something for you. We have something for you. Hit the end on what can be done to make sure that those statistics do not apply to you. So here's the deal. This is what the world tells us. Ephesians six for fathers do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them out Up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, Proverbs 22 Six says Start children off on the way they should go. And even when they are old, they will not turn from it. Second Samuel 714 says this, I will be a father to him, and he'll be a son to me. When he does wrong, our discipline him in the usual ways the pitfalls and obstacles of this mortal mortal life. But I'll never remove my gracious love from him. As black fathers in particular, we have had so many obstacles unique to our journey, and connecting and loving our kids and living out what the Scriptures mean for us. When it comes to employment and income, African American fathers face far more challenges than our white counterparts. The Bureau of Labor Statistics, even in 2020, said the unemployment rate for African American men was 9.6%, which is higher than even the national average. Additionally, African American fathers, we tend to have lower medium household incomes. And the last thing I'll say is the incarceration rate we know to disproportionately black people, black men, in particular black fathers, right? We deal with injustice and mass incarceration that takes us away from our children and from a household so as men, as fathers, how do we overcome all the internal and external obstacles that stand in our way of becoming the loving, connected and spiritual leaders? For our children? How do we address our inner wounds so we can give our children a more whole version of ourselves? What is it that we need to do? And what's the mountain we need to clap? I've got some brothers in here that have some answers, because I'm joined with our chairman, Deacon, Deacon Thomas withers and our Vice Chairman, Deacon Charles Francis, who are going to help us climb this mountain now and get some manner that can be fruitful and helpful to all of us. We represent three different ages and seasons of fatherhood. And so everybody give her hand and let's welcome Deacon weathers and Deacon Francis. All right. So brothers, I want to start with you. And start by asking you, if you could just introduce yourself, give us your age and the age of your children. And of course, I would start with our chair over here.

Deacon Francis  07:49

Well, good morning, Pastor. And thank you for that wonderful introduction to bring us in so that we can get our mind right. So with no further ado, um, I am 59 years old, I have five children, the oldest being 37. The next one will be 34. And then I have 33 year old. And then I have one will be 19. This year, and one that will be 15. So To God be the glory.

Pastor B  08:19

Amen. Thank you, Francis.

Deacon Withers  08:24

Good morning, everyone. I'm 64 years old. And I have a daughter Megan. But one thing I haven't shared with a lot of folks is that Megan was a twin. And we lost the boy when when Diana was like, maybe five months pregnant, something happened. And she had to go into hospital. And they did what they did. And in the boy was he was born but Megan was still there. So they had to soak up her cervix and Donna was on bed rest for like for a couple of them. Almost like a month or so. You know, and they gave her medication to control the contractions. And what thinking well, this I mean, what effect will this medicine have gonna have on our child? And, but but To God be the glory make? Megan was born she was two pounds. But she was healthy. I still consider myself a father. His name was Sterling. And Sterling, Jamal Francis. And when he was born, he was still born. And I looked at him. It's like, wow, he looked just like me. And then he took him away, and we buried him and all that. But you know, it's just that there are times like, it's like, but where I'm from is a small town called EMC, South Carolina. And oh, people will say, you know, you don't want to fly up in God's face. And I don't fly up in God's face. But there are days when I wonder, you know, what would he have been like? Because if he was if he was alive today, he would be 29 years old. And I'm thinking you know, I mean, what kind of career you would have had I I mean, what kind of dad he would have been that kind of thing. So, you know, I think about it every now and again that what role would have played in his life to what kind of man would he be today? So I just think about things like,

Pastor B  10:11

I'm really glad you shared it. And, you know, I've got a question as a father and as a husband, you know, how? What was it like going through that? How did you get through dealing with it, you're grieving the loss of your son. But then you've also got a daughter who still growing you got a wife who is going through all of this, like, how did you get through that,

Deacon Withers    10:34

when it when it came to losing Sterling, I just had to, I just had to, I had to put them aside because, like I said, Diana was, you know, when bed rest was taking medication. And the thing is, I had to leave her, I had to go to work. That meant that I had to leave at home by herself. I mean, she's on bed rest at home by herself. And I'm working. I was reported to Post and Courier then, when all this was happening, and I'd be out in the car, making my making my rounds anyway, because I was the police reporter. So I had to go to the police departments and all that. So when I when I tell you, God has been wonderful to as God has been wonderful to us, because he saw Dinah to all that I had to put Sterling but not put them aside. But I had to focus on Diana and, and Meg and I had to focus on them. And you'd have the opportunity to really God and at the time, I'd had the time to grieve. I mean, I just didn't I mean, I just had to focus on them. And,

Pastor B  11:27

but that brings up a common point that we have to deal with as men. And that is in order to be present. For others. A lot of times we have to suppress ignore our own grief. You know, here you are, you've got to be there for them. And that means I don't even have time to grieve my own child. I think sometimes people don't realize how much we're carrying. Because we don't have the opportunity to express all the other negativity and things that we can't we can't fall apart because we've got to hold it together. And and that pressure is right there. And I'm sure we'll make it back to this how as men, we carry these burdens. And then what do we do with them? How do we release them? But before we jump into more of the deeper stuff, I thought it would be good for us to hear what do you love about being a father like what what do you love most about being a father

Prayer  12:28

is really kind of twofold. But you know, my sons, my sons, I really take a whole lot of pride in and making sure that they're good men, that they they're honest men and hard working men and smart men, they, they they're respectful men, I'm just just some good dudes to some good news, I that's that I really take pride in that. And especially if, as I view my older son, West, three kids of his own now and he's married. And I just I love watching him as a father himself and as a husband. And then the icing on the cake is when he comes back and says, Dad, I got the situation, can you can I talk to you to get your perspective on it, and it's his dad is so rewarding. And then on the other hand, the girls, the girls, they, they, they kind of show their love in a different way because of me and my personality. And they kind of take on some of that. And we show our love a little differently. And they you know, they just come by and do stuff to me, like when I'm well out of shape, they'll come by and flip my chest muscles, you know, just to let me know that at a muscle do that a muscle, you know, so I'd like yeah, don't do that. But that just lets me know that they love me, you know, and they'll come by and just rub my head or something, you know, getting some grades up there. They'll make they'll rub it but they'll give an excuse why they're rubbing it you know, but it's still love and so I just I just relish in that I just like a dog when you pet him he started kicking his leg. You know, that's that's pretty, pretty much what's going on inside. But yeah, that's that's the biggest reward for me.

Deacon Withers    14:05

For me, it was just watching making grow up. Growing up. I always wanted to be a dad always wanted to have a family. And I keep telling Megan I said there was love and joy in our house before she came along. But when she came along, it just just blew it off the charts. I mean, she brought so much love and joy into our house. It was just fantastic. And I just love watching her growing up. It was just fun. watching her grow up and just, you know, just just being heard and just watch her personality just develop that way. And our relationship was just was just wonderful. I used to I used to pick her up from from school and you know, when, when she was Elementary School picked up one afternoon, and I just I would just asked her how was your day and she would just take off and just tell me how her day was. And she said, You know, I was out playing ball today and the ball came to me and I thought back to The pitcher, and the kid and one boy says, Hey, you throw like a girl. And she said, You dummy. I am a girl. It's like when she told me that I just died. I had to stop the car. And we both just, we both just died laughing. It was, it was just, it was one memory, I'll never forget, as long as I live, we're both just laughing. Just cry. And just, it was just one, just experiencing her growing up was such a joy. I mean, it's just, it just was just just how she grew from a little girl to the woman she is today is just wonderful. I mean, just just, I just love it.

Pastor B  15:36

My children are younger, of course, and the joy of coming home, and then yelling daddy, and running to me. It is life giving, it does not matter what happened, it don't before what I was dealing with, how my heart feels when they come running. And you know, the three year old her her legs are so small, but she moves them so quickly. And just jumps with faith in that I'm going to catch it. Oh, just that. And you know, they're also at this neat stage. So we, we've started playing Mario Kart together, it's something all of all four of us can do at the same time, even a three year old. She comes in last place almost every time. But she finishes and she loves play. And then of course Ariana who's nine now she's competitive. So we're going at it. I mean, we're going at it, she wants to beat daddy. And I'm going to make it very difficult. But the fact that we're all in there and so last evening, we're all playing this is after church and and my wife comes in and apparently Isaiah had taken a stamp and was stamping the wall with it somewhere, which was a big no, no. And she comes in and she inquires will say did you do this and they it looks up at her with those big eyes and goes, Daddy I can't help you here, dear. And it'll all of us kind of laugh. But there's, there's this experience of life that happens for me by being present with them and interacting and them just being themselves. How it just gives life back to me. And I can't imagine life without it. I just it changed my whole perspective and what mattered and what was significant. When my daughters came into my life,

Prayer  17:36

I'd like to I'd like to throw a question in there for each of us. Did you ever I know when I my first kid was coming, I felt inadequate. As a father, I was like, Man, I gotta, I gotta learn how to do this, I gotta get in the gym. So I'm in the best shape. I gotta, I gotta prepare for this kid, I got to I mean, sports, I got to teach them how to shoot a jump shot. You know, I was really, really putting added pressure on myself to be a father and how to perform, but all they want is just you to be present. Yeah, that's it, you know, and so I was really, really beating myself up. And kids like, Man, I don't care if you show me how to shoot a jump shot, just just be there. When I shoot my raggedy jump shots.

Pastor B  18:21

I feel I am going to add something else to it. And also feeling like you've got to give them so much. But there's this pressure of, I've got to make sure the world they live in is perfect. You know, and I don't want them to hurt like hurt or feel the rejection that I filled out, you know, all these different things. And so we ended up putting all this added pressure on fatherhood when you are exactly right. What they want is us to be present.

Prayer  18:48

Yeah, sit. And I always speak about the butterfly effect. You know, they they've got to struggle somewhat so that they can be strong enough to to stand in his world, man. I mean, it's imperative. They got to build those muscles, whether they be physical or intellectual or spiritual. They've got to build.

Pastor B  19:08

You reminded me of something. So we restarted our daddy daughter dates, which is something we hadn't done through the last three years because of COVID, which means he has never had that experience. And at my date with Arianna, she expressed that she wished she had more time with me. And then she said, but it's okay. You're busy. And I said, is it Wow. And she said, Well, not really. Yeah, yeah. And I said, Okay, well, what do you miss about the time we spent? And she said we used to play video games together, daddy. And that entire conversation is what has caused us to start doing video games together as a family again. We went after dinner to a store to get a brand new video game for our Nintendo. I One that just she and I could play together. It's it's a game where you have to do things together in order to make it through the obstacles and different things. And so you just work together and it's in. It's neat that she's smart enough and old enough now to where we can do this. So we're automatically building relationships through that is what she said she wanted to do. And then we got something else that that all of us could play through creating a space to just connect with Arianna, she gave some valuable information to me about how I wasn't doing what she needed. As a dad, I need I want to spend time with your dad differently. Right. And, and also communicated. She understood what I was doing. Like she wasn't mad about what I'm doing. She She appreciates ministry, she sees ministry, all of that. And it said that she's okay with it. But when I pushed her on and said, Is it really okay? She was honest and said Not really. Yeah,

Prayer  20:55

that's golden. Yeah, as Golden because I used to mentor a group of young men call a knights of the Tigers. And every year for Martin Luther King Day, we would get them together and among with other things as well. But this particular time I, mica, my, my youngest son was in the boy scouts. And they were supposed to march in the same parade, the Martin Luther King Day Parade, downtown Charleston. And I was like, Hey, man, you want to you want to, you want to walk with us? And he's like, you know, Dad, he says, I feel like you spend more time with them kids than you do with me. And that hit Hall? Yeah, that hit hard. And, you know, I was already obligated to them. And I was I had a full plate. But I had to make room. Yeah, I had to make room to if nothing else, to just go in his room and just sit down for a minute and, and watch him play video games. Just ask questions about what he was doing how you do that man? Just kind of, you know, yeah, you know, just just invest in this.

Pastor B  22:03

There are two things I want to highlight that have come out of this conversation already. And that is one we've got to make room. Dads, we just have to make room. It is what it is. We have to make room. But the how we make room our kids will actually tell us. It's important that we make room, the way they want to connect with us and not the way we presuppose they want to connect, they'll communicate. And it may be something that you're uncomfortable with. It may be something that you're not as familiar with. But it really has to be about them. Right? really has to be about though.

Prayer  22:36

Yeah. And if you have more than one kid, it's it. You know, it's not, it's not cookie cutter by enemies. They're all different. It's been our experience, just way different. And what we can take things from mica, he doesn't care. If he does not care. He just doesn't. So you have to find out how to reach them so that you can discipline them. Yeah. And what affects them but it takes us Wow with mica with my as she like, I remember one time pastor, he was saying the oldest, always want to please, they always want to do the right thing. And my is no different. She was very little anything, just one time. And this is a perfect example of how these two are so very different. When Maya was young, she started carrying a purse really early because a mom carries purses and people at church would give her candy and stuff. And they would put it in and she would put it in a purse. And when she wanted to pee, she would come to her mom and me and say Hey, can I have a piece of his candy that's in my purse? Can I have a piece of this candy? And we're like, yeah, maybe you can piece. Mica, on the other hand, would go into my purse, and take out a piece of candy and not ask anybody. Completely different.

Deacon Withers    23:53

Yeah.

Pastor B  23:56

So for you guys, what has been your greatest challenge? Being a father? What would you say? And I know that's hard to narrow down necessarily. But if you had to pull it to one thing, what is your greatest challenge of being a dad?

Deacon Withers  24:12

A couple of things for me. Making was a little girl. You know, I spanked her. I had to spank her for something. I don't remember what it was. But that broke my heart. I mean, having a spanker broke my heart. And I said I can't be doing this. I can't be hitting on her. Yeah. And I said, well, because if I hit on her, I'm teaching her that it's okay for someone to say I love you and to abuse you. So I had to figure out a way to punish her, discipline her without being physical. And I sat down with her. And I told us and Listen, sweetie, I can't be hitting on you just can't. Because I don't enjoy it. I know it's discipline. But we have to figure out a way where we discipline you without being abusive. And we talked about it. And I said, you know, you're gonna have to listen to me. And if if we, you know, take away things from you, it's not because we try to be mean, we, it's because we love you, we want to make sure that you know you are brought up the right way the right way. And it worked out, it worked out. I mean, it just worked out. We, whenever she did something wrong, we would talk about it, because we never talked to her. Like, she was like, when she was a little girl, we didn't talk to her like she was a little girl. We talked to her like, you know, she was a human being who could understand what we were saying. And that was very, that was very, very good. Very good. And it worked out.

Prayer  25:44

So no, baby tell, no, no, no, no, no,

Deacon Withers  25:46

no baby talk. No, I was always, you know, this is the conversation. No baby talk. So water is water. Now water is knowing Wow. Now while watching the water is water, we took it to a pediatrician when When, when, when for for the B exams. And it's like, hey, and he gave us this book to read to help us, you know, with parenting and it worked. The one the one challenge I had to had to get straight in my mind is like, you know, I'm raising this child, other than dying, and she's the love of my life. And some guys gonna come along and tell me how much he loves her. You know, and, you know, he wants to marry her. I'm thinking, really, I had to, had to have a conversation with myself to Listen, brother, Francis, a guy is gonna come along one day and tell you how much he loves her, and how much he dislikes. I had to come to grips with that

Pastor B  26:40

I struggle with as like right now, as I struggle with that.

Deacon Thomas  26:45

I had to I had to have a conversation with myself because I'm thinking some guy's gonna come along and tell me how much he loves her. Like, really? You're gonna tell me how much you love her? No, but I'm good with it now. I'm good with it now,

Pastor B  26:58

which is the hope right? I mean, at the end of the day, right. We wrestle with our finitude and the fact that if we are successful, and quote, unquote, that means that we die. And they live Yeah, right. Right. And, and that they live and they love and there's fruitfulness and all of that. But with us. There's grief tied to that. Even that, right. Yeah. Ah,

Deacon Withers  27:24

wow. Give me that question. Again. I forget. Sorry. This is done took me away.

Pastor B  27:31

Francis, messed all of us up in here. Everybody

Deacon Withers  27:34

was some do coming down my love your daughter.

Pastor B  27:39

That's real. That is real.

Deacon Withers  27:42

That's real. Really, you better lover you?

Pastor B  27:47

You You better? Yeah. All this love and sweat and prayer and tears. And

Deacon Thomas  27:55

then you can come along and take it away? Yeah, she's my

Deacon Withers  27:58

heart and tea parties. And yet all the stuff I've done and you're gonna come and just come in half step. And I don't think so brother. I don't think so. So here's here's a window into into, into me. I am not a perfect person. No, I'm so flawed now. Yeah, I'm so flawed. And just trying to get it together. That, you know, your kids, they kind of, they kind of take on some of you. And, and so my greatest challenge has been, how can I still be me, although I'm trying to improve I'm, every day, and my kids live with me. And they see me. And so, you know, they see me out in public. And they they see me at church, they know the perception. They they know I have a position at church and they remind me of that. If something's not going well and really, really, Deacon, whether I'm sorry. Yeah, so I get all of that. But I guess the challenge has been the greatest challenge has been if I'd be very honest, is is trying to be yourself and still be a father and still be positive, positive image, if that makes sense. Because, you know, we try to teach our kids to be a certain way things that you do and you don't do and, and it's hard to say don't do as I do do as I say Right. And so you have to walk the walk as well as walk the talk and you know, but there's some there's some there's some things that we do that that I just don't you know agree with I'm not on board with that and I and I kind of you know, want my own line and and I don't want my children to get it confused or get it twisted and I want them to be good people but there are Have some some lines that we draw in the sand that I think are unnecessary. So that's been my greatest challenge is just trying to be real with them and let them see me. And understand that I still work every day. I still love them. I still love God and all of that. So

Pastor B  30:17

what you're what you're giving an example of is exactly what I feel my greatest challenges right now, in this season. Specifically, as it relates to what do we expose our kids to? And when? Yeah, right, so so my kids are growing up in a technological age. That is unprecedented. So, you know, zay is three, and she knows how to work in iPads, and the phone with no problems. She knows the passwords to my parents, phones and iPads, not to mom and dad's, right. But to the grandparents, the three year old knows the password, and which one goes with which phone, wow, to where she can work right on into that thing. And then get to the app that she was needing to locate and to commence to engage. So they have access to so much to a world that is full of chaos, trouble and satanic influence, as well as good business and godly and all that. But our children just like us, by nature are sinful, and will be drawn to things that they don't need to be drawn to. So we wrestle with that heavily. And how do I wrestle with that, right? Where I use social media, I'm engaged in social media, this podcast right here, is going to be blasted over Facebook, Instagram, you know, all of these different things. And I'm going to be on there engaging. And so here I am, we have literally banned iPads from the house right now. They'll get them when we go on vacation, that kind of thing. Specific, you know, oversight. Because what we even with the parameters that we had in place, there's it's too easy to get access, and things get filtered into YouTube and other things. And it's a very slippery slope. And so after careful study and analysis and everything we concluded, just a Steve Jobs had concluded with his own children, that the iPad was not good for them. And since we took it away, and I Deeks gonna jump in here, too, since we took it away, we've noticed a change in our kids, they're engaging more together. Yeah, they're using more creativity. We become more conscious as mom and dad about our engagement, right? Because we're having to make sure that we're not subject to the same type of influence. We just get caught up in before you know it, you've scrolled through 20 different videos and wasted 15 minutes, you know. So one of my greatest challenges is, what do I expose you to? And when, you know, how do we engage in this whole world? And making sure that we're educated on it? So that we know what's going on?

Deacon Withers  33:18

Absolutely. And so that was going to be my question to each of you. Do you filter? Or did you filter what your children are able to see, because you can put parental, you know, parental guides, or whatever you want to call it, however you want to say it, but you know what I mean, you can put them on their devices. But we never did. We never did. We gave them phones at very young ages, and they had the internet access, and they just could go wherever they wanted to go. And, and with that in mind, I would always kind of sneak up on the boy or the girl and just say, you know, just kind of look over their shoulder without them knowing just to see what they're looking at. And I've never been surprised. I've never been surprised. And so I looked at it from this standpoint, I'd love to get you guys take on this is is the world is going to be the world. Yeah, but we have to equip them our children to go out into the world and make a you know, wise decisions, and you just can't shelter them from everything. And so I'm not saying that is right that you don't put parental controls on your kids devices. But I'm just saying what the weather's did we just we never we never did it. And I can't say that they'd never seen anything that they weren't supposed to see at an appropriate age or

Deacon Withers  34:37

with Megan I mean, she came along just when social media was getting started because of like my space and all that so great. We we never like she didn't get a cell phone to tell she's like 14 Right so and we didn't have to issue have, you know? Because we did, we had a desktop at the house. And it was always in a place where we could see where she was going. Right. So we never did. If she saw stuff and out in public, I mean, you know, or we're at a friend's house, that kind of thing. We couldn't control that. But we did it at home. And it was never an issue for so you use parental controls? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And but one thing is we made sure I guess we're getting off into another field here. But we made sure that she was able to come and talk to us about anything. Because I told her, Listen to me, I don't care what it is, I don't care what it is. You can come and talk to us about anything. And any questions you have. Don't, don't feel like you know, you can't ask me, I want you to be able to come in and talk to me about anything. I don't care what it is. And she did. I mean, when when it came to boys and things like things like that. I mean, she came in, you know, and talked to us. And now listen, I told her listen, I'm never gonna lie to you, you asked me a question. I'm gonna be as honest as I can be. I am never, I will never lie to you. If you ask me a question, I will give you what I believe is the truth. I'll never lie to you. And that's always been a thing for a thing for us. Always come to us, no matter what it is, don't feel embarrassed, don't whatever it is, come and talk to us. And she did. And I liked the fact that we had that kind of relationship back then. And we do now. I mean, we talk about whatever she wants to talk about. And one thing we're talking about now is our immortality. I mean, she, she worries about me dying. And I know she I mean, as a sweetie, you can't worry about that. No, you can't listen, I got news for you. I'm gonna die. I mean, I am gonna leave, I'm gonna leave here. But I said, just let us whatever time we have together, just let us enjoy it. Just have this have a have a great time. Because when I'm gone, I want you to have great memories of me, I just, I just want you to have great memories of your dad and just think about, you know, the times we had together. And that was even before she became when she was a kid. I wanted to make sure that she would have great memories of her childhood, being with dad and just us being together. So I made sure when it came time to her riding a bike, I made sure I taught how to ride a bike. When she went to get a driver's permit. I took her when she wanted to get a driver's license, you know, I took me to get a driver's license. And we go out I just even today, I just want us to have good times together. So when she thinks about Dad, when I'm going, she'll say, Wow, I had a great dad. Yeah, I had a great dad.

Pastor B  37:57

I think some of it depends on knowing your children and what they're ready for. And a lot of this does go to generational, right? In our household, we don't have traditional cable, we have all apps, right? So everything has profiles. Each profile has different access levels to different things. So my profile has access, whether it's Disney plus, or Hulu, whatever, you know, to everything that we're paying for my children's profiles don't they're set up to where it's age appropriate. Our profiles are password protected, because again, it's too difficult to police. And everything is there now it wasn't like when I was growing up were channels were channels. And you had to actually record something, if you want to see it and where certain things only came home after certain times. And so you were all the kids were asleep, all that kind of thing. Now, it's all just there. Yeah. 24/7 whenever you want it, just click all this button, boom. Right? And, and that's a level of access that he has. And I'm very uncomfortable with four, nine year old, a seven year old, and a three year old, all who can work these systems with no problem. So everything is set up with a certain amount of control. But here is I think the serious nugget that both of you have talked about that I'm in agreement with and that is we've got to have enough of a relationship with our kids to where we can talk about all these things. Because it doesn't matter whether we're keeping them from getting exposed to it at home. They're getting exposed to it at school. Oh, yeah. The conversations that we're having. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, the conversations that we're having to have because of what their friends are saying what their friends are doing all that one is shocking and appalling. But but two opens the door where we can really have a conversation of here is what this is, yep. Here's the history of that. Here's what we do. Here's, here's what we believe in as buttons and out and I'll give you a good example of that. One of our conversations and our daddy daughter with Ariana was she said that he is the inward bad. And yeah, is it? And so I went through the whole history of the N word where it came from what it means it goes, what she said was to me there was this euro descendant child on her bus that was using the N word. Yeah. So as a white boy using the N word, okay. Yeah. So we have to have this whole conversation of this dynamic. And what this means and how it's been used culturally, and all that kind of stuff. And like, and so I'm sitting here, this is an interesting, deep conversation to have with a nine year old, but she's ready for it. Yeah. And she, and she's asking me for it, and I'm giving it to her, which means I've had to sort through all this myself. And where did I resolve to it for us as a family as a family? We're not going to use that word. And here's why. Now, has daddy used that word bass? Absolutely. Uh, what kind of context? Yeah, like because, because culturally growing up, it's just, it's just what we did where I came from, we just, we just stopped

Withers    41:25

or seen it as a term of endearment.

Pastor B  41:30

And the answer to that would be yes.

Withers   41:32

Right. For inward. Yeah.

Pastor B  41:36

Have you been ready to fight somebody overseeing it? Who did not look like you? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Here's the problem with it. And so, for me, it was like, so here's why, because she hadn't heard that language use now. So. Right, because where we are now we've evolved beyond to with, we use the N word. It's just not necessary. There are other terms to use for endearment and all that kind of stuff. And so she's not going to hear me go to our people say, How you doing my, you know, that's just not gonna happen. Right? Or even in the Brotherhood in the fellowship that she experiences with me and at church is just something that now is far and from what she's seen. So now in this conversation, if I if I then say, oh, yeah, we gonna do that. It's gonna send things in a bit of a tailspin. Like, wait, I'm totally confused, because the example that we're seeing in this bin set from the men that we interact with on the regular is absent from this. And so that whole conversation happens. And I think that's the key. If we don't have the relationship with our kids to have the conversation, that's where we're in trouble, it doesn't matter how you punish them, restrict them, of what, what have you, what's going to happen is, everybody would just be in an emotional rant, right? And so your, your child's going to get older used to be trying to beat them at 1415 1617 years old, like that's gonna do something. And what they're really in need of is deep connected conversation, where there's some real things that you're uncomfortable talking about, right? Because we're gonna be talking about some of this stuff. And some of its gonna be, you know, the ads and I've already talked through some of this has been like, look, some of this you got to take the Lido, because these girls, and I just, I'll go, I'm gonna pray, I'll go get help. I'll go talk to the folk, I'll go read the books like Deacon Francis did like all that. I'm gonna do that. Right. But I'm gonna be incredibly uncomfortable. And I really need you to take the lead. Oh, this one right here. So we have to sort through that as parents on what what are you going to take the lead on and have this conversation? What am I going to take the lead on? What are our roles in this? And what do we need to talk about right now, so that we can get more comfortable with being able to have this conversation that we have to have we can't sweep it under the rug? We can't pretend like it's not there. Like it didn't happen. We can't just ignore it and think that somehow the No, everything's gonna magically go away. No, God has given us these children so that we could steward them and we could disciple them, and that we are the ambassadors that God has sent to be with them. We can't outsource that.

Deacon Withers  44:09

So the elephant in the room is when you when that time comes for your daughter to become a young lady. And she begins her body begins to change, which I've never met a man that's felt comfortable about talking to his daughter about that, and I noticed some single fathers out there. And I don't even know how to tell you how to you know, get grandma somebody because when when when your daughter starts to experience, you know, her cycle. So let me be perfectly clear. I am ill equipped to talk to you about anything concerning that other day and it happens monthly. This is all I know.

Deacon Thomas  44:54

Even now it's like like sometime Hey Megan, how you doing? I'm having little pain. What was wrong? Nevermind, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I only don't I mean, I'm good.

Pastor B  45:12

I've got a different take on, I figured you would now. Now, admittedly, so we haven't hit that stage yet. Okay, but but I'm planning and we've got plans. And our plan when our first daughter gets there, and this will be with all of them is to actually have a celebration to take them out, to express to them that this is a part of womanhood, you're being called into womanhood, this is what it means. This is now what things look like going forward. Because I've heard so many stories of young ladies who felt shamed. Young ladies who felt you know, and I don't want that, particularly as her father and as the male figure for that to be their experience with me. And again, so much of this comes from my peer group growing up, and so many of them as young ladies having very negative experiences. And so I said, I'm going to do this differently. You know, it is what it is, I get it, it's biology. And we're going to celebrate you and make sure that you understand what this is, especially because there's so much suffering tied to it. So many women, the cramps, the bloating, the pain, the headaches, the you name, you know, all of that,

Prayer  46:31

not to mention even the shock of the first occurrence, and you might not be prepared for it and embarrassment.

Pastor B  46:37

Well, and that's why the console, yes, has taken the lead on communicating ahead, that this is going to happen. To which, because I wasn't present for that I got the report, there's certain things where you come back and give the report. All right. That's it, you come back and get the report, the report was that she already knew about it, because she has friends that had already experienced it. And it wasn't a big deal. You know, it's, it happens. I was I alright, that's a good report. So now that we've got the report, we're going to plan on what we do when this happens to her. So you know that that's my take on it. We're still working through exactly what the conversation of celebration in the call into womanhood, what this means would be, yeah, but I think we don't do enough of that in our cultures for our boys or girls. We don't call them into manhood. We don't call them into womanhood, saying, This is what this means. This is the expectation, this celebrate the fact that you're coming in now. Am I uncomfortable with some of this stuff? Absolutely. Am I uncomfortable watching my my children begin to develop the things that that women have? Oh, it's very uncomfortable. But do we have to accept that that's a part of what comes with this? Absolutely. And we've got to deal with our inner feelings that are not good if we if we let them just play out and then we disconnect and aren't engaging with our kids.

Deacon Thomas  48:07

Yeah, yeah. But uncomfortable. Is this. Having your daughter call you say, hey, I need this. Can you go by the store and get me this? And I'm in the store, not having a clue what I'm looking for. So I'm standing there, and I'm saying, what is it that you want now? Okay, here's a guy in this particular section of the store. Looking for this item? I have no clue. So you never had

Pastor B  48:37

to do it for your wife. Oh, see this? This is a generational difference.

Deacon Thomas  48:43

No, I did it for my daughter. I did it for the Megan. It's like, Hey, I am in the store. Sweetie, what does it tell me what you want? And I'm trying to rush to get it? You know, because I'm a guy. I mean, ya know. So, as a dad,

Pastor B  48:59

you do what you got to admit. He's maxis. Yeah,

Deacon Thomas  49:01

she got to do so. I'm in the store trying to figure out what it is that she wants. I don't have a clue. So I'm calling her say, Sweetie, what is it? I mean, you know, I'm looking looking. It's like, I'm hoping nobody's watching me.

Pastor B  49:16

Literally, nobody cares. Nobody cares. Other than me.

Prayer  49:20

Yeah, and everybody knows exactly what you're doing. And they probably laughing on the inside. Or struggling

Pastor B  49:27

with they know it's not for you. Yeah, but it's our own. It's our own stuff, right? It's our own feelings. This actually hit something that because we're winding down now. Something that things very important for us to at least discuss a little bit, right, because some of this is dealing with the way we were raised the examples of fatherhood and manhood that we got from our fathers and how different than the man and expectation is of us. And when there's a Conflict in that were immediately uncomfortable. Right? Right, right. So maybe here's a good way to look at it if we can reflect on the fathering image that we have in our minds from our fathers. And how we have had to be different and similar. And our experience as fathers,

Deacon Thomas  50:23

my dad was born in 1928. So he's a regeneration. You know, you didn't hug another man, you didn't tell another man, that I love you that that just didn't happen. I know. He. There was no doubt in my mind. I knew he loved us. I mean, he just did. But he never said that, which is, you know, I understand. But he, I mean, he took very good care of us. I mean, he just did, yeah, we never got to the part of saying, I love you till I was like, in my 40s in my 40s. And we started telling each other that, you know, that I love you. It got to the point where if I called him, and we talk and I was getting ready to retire. You know, in the conversation, he would say, I love you, son. It's like, Wow, I love you, dad. And so who

Prayer  51:16

initiated the hugging? And

Deacon Thomas  51:20

we did when I said we, the kids, my my sister, my older brother and I, we initiated it. And it I don't know if he was uncomfortable at

Pastor B  51:32

first. I'm sure it will.

Deacon Thomas  51:35

But eventually, he came around to it where he would initiate it. I mean, at the end of the conversation, he was I love you, son in this like, I love you, dad. Take care.

Pastor B  51:46

How old were you when that transition happened?

Deacon Thomas  51:48

I was in my 40s. Yeah. And it took a while for him to become comfortable with saying I love you. Because as you know, he was of a generation. You just didn't tell another man that I love you. Right? You just ruin what you mean. Yeah, yeah. But, but it came to the point where he was very comfortable where he were saying, I love you, son. I love you, dad. Take care. Yeah.

Pastor B  52:12

And let's be clear, the image of masculinity that we have biblically, is one that communicates love. Right? Jesus communicated Love, No greater love is this that he that lay down his life for his friends, right? I'm doing this because I love you. God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, right? So even the masculine image of love that we get from the Bible is one that communicates verbally and operates and love yet, that's consistently our experience. Mine was very similar, right? We didn't hug we didn't say I love you. You know, my, my siblings didn't even engage in that. So much like y'all did. Collectively, it was the baby boy, me, who really pushed through that and really started saying it and it wasn't just males, like my grandmother didn't say I love you, neither one of them. And I remember as a little boy, sitting at a table after school with my grandmother, who was my after school care, you know, it took me a week of, in my mind, prepare myself because I wanted to tell Gaga, I loved her. And I finally worked up the courage. Wow. And I told her, I just stopped what I was doing. She's working on a word search crossword puzzle. And I said, God, God love you. And she stopped. Just kind of stared at the table for a moment. And there was this pregnant pause. And then she said, I love you to Shay. And I wouldn't be saying she caught me saying she. So I went back to my work, she went back to hers. And we never said it again. She died a couple years later. But I remember when she passed saying, I'm so glad I like it, there would have been a missing piece for me if we never did that. My other grandmother, I was a grown adult. And I remember I would call her from Princeton. I was in school, the checkout and I would say I love you and she go and hang up the phone. Like it took months before she started saying it back. And so many stories with my dad now we all say it freely. But but that was our story.

Prayer  54:15

And I'll you know, my story, specifically for me was my dad was born in 1920. And he had me real late and, and I had to initiate and I think I was I was off in the Navy. And I would come home and I'd be like, Man, I miss my dad, you know, and I I'd hug him. And it was it was very difficult because he was a lot taller. He was like six three, you know, and, you know, I had to, you know a certain way you got to hug so I'd have to hug him and it was it he wasn't really on board and and tell him I love him and so he eventually came around. He never got to the point where he initiated it, but he would definitely respond, you know, so that was an improvement. And even for my wife, who's from the Caribbean, you know, they I don't know if this is a Caribbean thing or not. And Pastor, you can speak to that if you like, but they just don't hug. They don't hug. I can remember we had a gathering at the house, and her older brother was getting ready to leave. And he gripped me up. I brought Catch you later, you know, and all that. He began to walk out the door. I was like, Wait, man, you're gonna rip me up and give me a hug. Hug your sister? And he was like, Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, but And so later, she told me she's like, we just didn't grow up doing that. And so, yeah, so it's, it's, it's different. It's a, it's a thing. It's a thing,

Pastor B  55:42

where I remember so much of our disconnect emotionally goes back to slavery, and the Caribbean, you know, the ship stop there first. Right? And we were you think about this as dads as a slave. You gave birth and weren't even allowed on your child's birth certificate, the slave owner name was owning, along with the Mother. Yep. You were valued by how you could be bred like a horse. And your children were stripped away from you? Yep. Which means to be emotionally connected was was almost at your own detriment. Exactly. To survive. And we're not that many generations removed from that? No, right. So literally, if nobody taught you how to do it, you don't even have it in your tool belt to us, which is why each of us have the story of we had to teach our fathers. Right. How to love in that way. Right. And thank God, we at least had fathers that were open to that kind of transformation, many don't know. And then were put in this position where now we then we didn't get that from our dads, we had to generate that. And thank God, we have a heavenly Father, who who gave that to us so that we could do that. But now we've got to initiate and give our children something that we didn't get from my dad.

Prayer  57:08

So I want to jump in here real quick. And just because I mean, I want to help people who are who are hearing this, because somebody might be dealing with this right now and wondering, like, what was inside of you, that, that enabled you to break the cycle and say, I love you. And, and I really can't explain it, I just, I really miss my parents by being away. And then when I would come back at it while I was gone, I realized, you know, as I interacted with other people in some of that the way I was raised, was I didn't have the best of everything. And we were very, very poor, but we had principles, and we had morals and values. And I was like, man, you know, you could do that. And I was like, that wouldn't happen in miles. That's just not happening. And then as I was away, and I got to experience other people and how they did things, it showed me the love that my parents had for me and whether it was discipline or, or restricting things from me or things of that nature. And and I was like, wow, they really love me. And so when I got back, I wanted to reciprocate, but verbally, but verbally. And so that's what inspired me to say, Hey, listen, I want to break this. I want to let you know, I love you. And so I'd be interested to hear what what pushed you guys. What was the motivation?

Deacon Thomas  58:25

For me it was knowing that I was going to one day that they were going to you know, transition. And I wanted to I want them to know how much I love them. How much I appreciate appreciation. What they did for me as a kid, I realized that they weren't my parents worked very hard. I mean very hard to give us the best life they possibly could. And when I went out into the world, I realized what they were trying to do and what they did. And that said, wow, because quick story. I graduated from high school and like three days after I graduated from high school, I went to boot camp for the Navy. And I got out into the world. And what I when I got back home from boot camp, I told my parents I said, I thank y'all. Yeah, I think I thank y'all very much. I said now I understand what you were trying to do it when you're bringing me up as as your child I did not understand. And I thank you all very much. I really really do. And, and I love y'all for it. And in that in that what? For me that was like you say a game changer. Yeah, to understand, because I thought my parents were, you know, like everybody else mean and you know, just ended no nothing. Yeah, you know, but when I got out into the world, I realized what they were trying to do. And I made sure I said thank you all very much. I can't thank you enough for for what y'all did for me. I love y'all. And I just wanted to make sure that they knew that before before, because, you know, you never know when you're gonna die. But, you know, I just wanted to them to know that. So

Prayer  1:00:18

I want to put you on the spot rare hit right here because we because of your, your, your studies. And so how does how does somebody who maybe didn't have a parent that that, that they appreciate or that they don't feel they appreciate? How do they break that cycle? Because I mean, cuz I really am trying to come from the standpoint that, you know, if you don't love that hurts you, it hurts you. So how do you how does somebody who didn't have that become well and make that change?

Pastor B  1:00:51

Yeah, well, and this actually goes through what I was going to say my approach was in dealing with this one, this is really about I want to love well, okay, it's not about me getting love from you, it's about how I'm going to give love. And because if you give love with the expectation of receiving, especially if you're giving it to a place that doesn't have the capacity to love you the way you desire to be loved from them, maybe they're too wounded, they're too broken, they have to go on a healing journey, then you're just going to get wounded, worse, right? So my I love you to my parents was not, and to my grandparents was not expecting I love you back. Now, if that happens is great. It's wonderful is lovely. But I went into that understanding, I'm doing this, because one identify, you didn't get this. But I am where I am, because of what you did do. Right, and I'm going to give you something that you didn't give, yeah, I'm gonna give you a reflection of God's love. And I'm at a healthy enough place where I can do that, and not have to worry about rejection. Right? If you if you need that, and you can't handle the rejection, you're not ready to love in that way, you need to heal more. Right. And when you're more whole, than you have something to give, but you can't give what you don't have. Right. So so what I would say, it starts with your own healing journey around whatever has gone on with between you and your loved one, your caregiver, your parents, your grandparents, to where you are ready, I believe, to say that when you can say that, from a source of giving, with no expectation of receiving anything back. I am saying this because I as as my mother, I have come to a place where I realize that I'm not going to allow just the negative things that you did. Yeah, to be the dominant story. Yeah, where there is at least one positive thing that you have done that I can show appreciation to you for and I love you and and that doesn't discount all the other stuff that I'm not saying that you were the greatest buried in the world. I was blessed to where I did have and do have amazing parents. Yeah. But but I'm blessed uniquely in that. And there are many who had parents who had issues that did not allow them to give their children what they really deserved from them. So you've got to go on that healing journey with God. Therapy is wonderful, all these other things so that you come to a place where you can give without the expectation of receiving in that way. And then you deposit that thing because love is very powerful. Yeah. And so just like with my grandmother, I kept sowing seeds. So in that seat, so in that seed, and before you know it, it transformed and she was able to give it back, it goes back to people can't give you what they don't have. She didn't have it, I began giving it to her. Eventually it took root and grew. And then she started giving me love back but I had to sew it first. Yeah. So that would be you know, I think there's so much more that we can say about it and it goes into unique circumstance which is why you probably want to talk with a professional as someone who can help you sort through your own trauma, your own feelings, your own emotions, so that then you know the why and the what as relates to how you interact and say I love you. You know this has been great. We have run out of Yeah, it has been great. Let me ask both of you what what is your one minute what you most want to say about anything as as we close out here and we go to the takeaway?

Prayer  1:04:29

Well, I'll kick us off with my one minute and my one minute is gonna be real short but I just believe this that love is the key obviously. And that even if you didn't get love it it's it's healing for you to give it in and I don't know. You know if there's some some magic to get in it but the thing that helped me is like you said your parents may not have been perfect and mine certainly were not perfect. But they they kept me they tried to re He's made the best they could. And I didn't always have everything but I was raised right, I will say that I was raised, right. And I appreciate that. And it equipped me to go out into the world and be successful. And so that's, that's where my love came from. Like we said, like out of appreciation. So in my summary, man, I would just say to anybody, especially to fathers out there, but if you didn't receive love, growing up just is sick, accentuate the positive things, I as you alluded to, as to and, and focus on those focus on those, nobody's perfect, including your parents, that's mine.

Deacon Thomas  1:05:39

For me, it's once I went, I saw the, how I was able to tell my dad, I love you, and he was able to say it back and not just say it, but you know, really, really mean it. I want to make sure that Megan Francis knows how much I love her. I mean, it wasn't just words, but just in, in our in how I interacted with her. And just let your kids know that you love them and just spend time with them. Even if it's just, you know, like, for example, my dad and I was the last one in the house. And we would sometimes we just sit down, sit on the back porch and eat watermelon and just talk, you know, which was great. I mean, for me, that was fantastic. And I just want just fathers just just be there for your kids. You don't want to always have to, you know, be, you know, even giving wisdoms, whatever. Just sit there and listen to him. And just have a conversation with them. They'll appreciate the time you spend with them. Because I spent a weekend with Megan. And the time we spent together was fantastic. It just was just being able to talk to each other and just spend time and just what what she wants out of life and the fact that now I met I wouldn't say the Twilight. Oh, you got to Twilight, you know, but because I'm you know, I don't put parameters on God. And I'm thinking, you know, I got at least 20 years or more. Hey, listen, I'm telling you, I don't put parameters on God. But hey, God, you know, you got a few more than that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I noticed notice. But my conversation, Megan Francis is very important in my life. And I love her dearly. So just just just be there for your kids, man. You know, just just be there. Talk to him. Tell him that you love him. Doesn't matter how old your kids get? Yeah. Tell them you love them. It doesn't don't ever stop telling you love them. Never stop showing them that you love them. Last Christmas. I was trying to figure out what I mean? Because she just like it gets to a point that what do you give your kids for Christmas? Because, you know, they're adults now. And I figured what I did was I wrote her a letter. I wrote Megan Francis a letter for Christmas. I mean, I did. I wrote her a letter telling her how much I love her. It's like it started with you know, the first time I saw her heartbeat on the ultrasound, or you know, I fell in love with you. The day you were born. I loved you even more. The day you you know, went to kindergarten. I loved you even more the day you rode your bike. I loved you even more the day you got your it's like the letter to me. It was a love letter to Megan Francis, right. And I sent it to her. And when she opened it, she read it. And she called me she was crying. I mean, she was crying. It's like Oh, dad.

Prayer  1:08:49

This is wonderful. That's good stuff.

Deacon Thomas  1:08:52

This is wonderful. Dad, I love you. I said sweetie, I was trying to figure out and it's not just a Christmas present, but something that she could share with her with her kids. I'm hoping that, you know, even if I'm not here, she will share that letter with with her kids and say this is how much your granddad loved me. You know, so yeah, it's also

Pastor B  1:09:12

an example to her future husband. Oh, yeah. That this is what love is and the example and the experience that she has had. Yeah. Of of what love is, you know, we to every father this listening to this. You've heard the charge. We must tell our children we love them. It must be said it must be expressed. None of that. Oh wait. It's obvious. I love you. No, no, no, no. We need to do like Jesus is done with us. God has done with us and communicate that I love you. Jesus didn't say anything obvious. I'd died on the cross. I mean, come on. Yeah. Didn't he communicated very outwardly that I love you? And this is how you Here's the takeaways. Again. Tell our kids we love them. Daddies make room, make room for your children, you have to, and understand in the conversation that we have in connecting, if you're uncomfortable, that's just the area what God wants to grow us. Yeah, God, God signals to us where growth is needed by discomfort. And when we feel uncomfortable in those relationships, we don't run from that we pray in that, yeah. And we invite the Holy Spirit in and say, teach us now, Lord, what to do with this uncomfortable place in this uncomfortable space. And God will meet us there and grow us. And sometimes it's because we don't have it to give. But God, he let us know, Jesus said, I'll be the father to the Father, the Son, mother to the mother, that's the friend to the friend, listen. So God will give us all we need to be equipped with so that we can love and steward our children well, all right, backgrounds may be different, but that, that doesn't matter, we can all heal, and we can all grow. So we must have a relationship that is built on conversation. If we don't have that, then we're in trouble. And we won't be who our children need us to be as they have to journey through this world. And the decisions our children make, they have their own lives live their own decision to make their own sinful nature as well. So there's no avoiding that. But we've got to give love, right, and God will give us what we did not get some kind of way. All right. So again, if you didn't hear anything else, tell your kids that you love them. And realize that as men, we're we're dealing with a lot of stuff. But you've got to get that stuff out, you've got to talk with other men, you've got to talk and released all those burdens, so that then you can be present, and that you won't withdrawal because you're so overwhelmed. Now told our single mothers who may have fathers of their children that are very much absent. What do you do with these statistics where here's an interesting fat list of other statistics, children who are mentored, even though they have absent fathers 55% more likely to enroll in college, 78% more likely to volunteer regularly. 90% of them are interested in becoming a mentor themselves. 130% more likely to hold leadership positions. 46% less likely to use drugs 81% more likely to participate in sports or extracurricular activities? Yeah. And so the key is this, and I and I have heard this and mom, we love you, and we respect you. And we honor you. Yeah. But as the mother, you can't also be the father. There is a need for that young man and particularly that young male, to have a father figure in his life, for your daughter to have a father figure in her life. We are a community. We are a community of people of love rooted in Jesus Christ. And so it's important that they still experience healthy examples of male mentor ship, father figures as they journey through life and it will combat those negative statistics that we heard in the beginning. Let's give a hand to our guests Deacon, withers and Deacon Francis. They're amazing, and they're awesome. We thank God for them. Everybody. Thank you for tuning in to the reboots. The Read No, mountain top Manna is been three years but the devil is the feet. We back back back and so too did next time. We look forward to having you back here as we climb a mountain and get the manner so that we can live the lives of abundance that God has called us to live. God bless everybody and we will see you soon.